Interesting that you should write about Wokeism as the CHILD of Postmodernism and Marxism - because their basic attitude/belief of "feelings trump reality" is essentially the attitude of an immature child. They cry at the slightest discomfort, they want instant gratification, and they throw violent tantrums when they don't get their way.
If I may be allowed a digression from the main subject of Wokeism, I wanted to offer an observation on the moral relativism which you correctly note guides Postmodernists. You state, "what made classic postmodernist moral relativists humble is realization that everyone has their own subjective truths, all of them are equal, hence, there’s no absolute truth, no one’s truth is superior, we all are equal...". What you don't state is the logical flaw that is fatal to such moral relativist thinking.
Postmodernists go just as far as your statement - concluding that "no one's truth is superior", that anyone's view is just as valid as anyone else's. But they fail at that point, because they fail to continue to follow out the logical consequences of adopting such a belief - a belief that, at first glance, looks pretty rosy, but, when examined more closely, disintegrates into a horror show. Moral relativism fails because it leaves one in the morally untenable position of having to accept that, operating from a worldview that rejects the notion of objective truth, that, for example, Hitler's opinion that it's a great idea to wipe out the Jews is just as valid as anyone else's. There is no logical ground for moral relativists to stand on from which they can declare that Hitler's opinion is "wrong", or "evil". In fact, there's no logical ground available to stand on from which to judge ANY opinion/belief as being wrong/bad/evil. The atheist philosopher, Bertrand Russell, acknowledged this problem, noting that "absent something like what we call 'God' (which serves as a transcendent source of objective moral truth), all talk of 'good' and 'evil' is nonsense."
Please forgive my long-windedness. I tend to operate as if the shortest verbal distance between any two points is a rather fullish sort of circle.
You made a good point about moral relativism and Hitler, I agree. In their view, even Hitler's morals are valid.
However, I don't agree with you bringing God here. God isn't required to validate morality which I believe is innate and universal.
In fact, there were enough crimes and genocides committed in the name of God.
My view on morality that it's objective and universal but it does NOT come from God or any supernatural being. It comes from our own hearts which are deep inside the same.
It's not the same as postmodernism. Because I claim that true moral values are intrinsic and universal book any human psyche just like liver is universal for any human body.
Hitler was not listening to his heart, hence he was immoral.
I'm not about to get into the whole logical argument on this - I've droned on long enough already here :) - but I'll just say that in order for morality to be objective, it has to originate from some transcendent source (hence, Russell's statement that "absent something like what we call 'God'...", any talk of good or evil is just nonsensical.)
Perhaps I can help you see the validity of Russell's point if you try this out: Okay, I'll assume that we agree that, for example, raping and murdering children is morally wrong. WHY? What MAKES it morally wrong?
Our heart is objective source enough. Moreover any external source you encounter first got registered by your subjective senses and then passes the judgment of your own heart.
People are just scared of the thought that their hearts are the only moral judges here and hence need an imaginary deity your validate it.
True deep voice of the heart, intuition, is NEVER deceitful. Don't confuse it with emotion.
My intuition and hunch NEVER failed me.
The Bible did, in the contrary, countless times - when it praised slavery and wars and condemned my gay nature and love for naught too.
I'm not a coward and don't need any external deity to validate what I know by heart is true, and my heart is an ultimate moral judge - always was and always will be.
I do agree that intuition is helpful and often on target. As far as moral choices, people do have consciences, but those can be misinformed and clouded by childhood abuse and societal brainwashing. Psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists are a good example of this.
I disagree that a belief in God is cowardice. Humans were never meant to go it all alone. That doesn’t mean we don’t do our part, but it does mean there is love and help to get there.
The Bible doesn’t praise slavery; it attempts to change people’s hearts/consciences to regard others in love rather than as possessions. Neither does it praise war, though war was sometimes necessary in defense and other times as judgment on people who committed evil acts for many years. It also doesn’t condemn anyone’s nature, though it does give the principle of commitment in marriage (no outside sex before or during marriage). This is for the emotional/physical/financial/etc. protection of both individuals and the family.
Intuition can transcend both child abuse and brainwashing.
And Bible DOES praise BOTH slavery and wars quite unambiguously in Leviticus, I could even quote to you from it.
Belief in God to get help and hope isn't cowardice. But if you need a deity to validate your morals, it IS cowardice however, and also self-denigration and self-deceit because there's no one but yourself to be responsible for your moral choices. To blame Devil for your OWN wrong moral choices is shifting responsibility for them from yourself same as to praise God for your correct moral choices is self-denial.
In addition, when instead of developing your own conscience and intuition you simply rely on every word of two thousand years old book which praises slavery and wars as an ultimate truth, it's laziness and lack of responsibility again.
You're right about the heart being capable of being deceitful. My heart was lying to me just yesterday evening - telling me the Yankees won. That, of course, was just wishful thinking on my part (when I fell for that big whopper my heart was telling me, and, ever the optimist, went to check the score, I saw the sad truth, that they lost, 8-2).
P. P. S. Also, you see the trap you had fallen into yourself? You justly accused postmodernism of denying objective reality and morality in favor of their subjective feelings.
Yet you yourself are doing essentially the same - denying objective reality in favor of your subjective faith.
Or how is your faith different from Woke feelings, tell me please? Nothing of it is factual. Nothing can be proven logically. There's ZERO logical proof of God's existence and hence to use God in a logical argument is already an oxymoron.
Again, we all have our conscience and intuition. We don't need any deity to validate our morals.
In fact, using deity to validate your morals is highly irresponsible. You shift the blame for your wrong moral choices on the devil and give credit for your correct choices to God. You deprive yourself from any agency. It's highly irresponsible IMO.
Also, it's downright laziness of mind. Instead of developing your own conscience and intuition you prefer to rely on the words of two thousand years old book which praises wars, slavery and genocides as an absolute truth. How are you better than the Woke then?
P. S. You see, even your belief in God comes from YOU, from your heart, not from Him. There's NO single logical proof of God's existence, yet you chose to believe in Him. Why? Because your HEART told you so. Again, it's not that God talks to you daily. It's in your HEART that your faith is. So even this comes from you, your heart is the only ultimate moral judge. I wonder why so many people are scared to acknowledge it while I never was.
True deep voice of the heart, intuition, is NEVER deceitful. Don't confuse it with emotion.
My intuition and hunch NEVER failed me.
The Bible did, in the contrary, countless times - when it praised slavery and wars and condemned my gay nature and love for naught too.
I'm not a coward and don't need any external deity to validate what I know by heart is true, and my heart is an ultimate moral judge - always was and always will be.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Theresa - although I get nervous when anyone suggests that I might be "exactly right" about something. I don't trust my judgment that much. In fact, I often vehemently disagree with some of my most firmly held opinions.
Alex, The bottom of the "directional" pic got cut off! I know what's there, but would enjoy seeing it! Sorry, but I admit I am juvenile, and very delinquent.
What liberalism? Liberalism is historically tied to the Bill of Rights. The ACLU would fight for the right of the KKK to have marches because they believed in free speech. No woke ACLU would do that today.
Indeed, the ACLU is currently firmly on the side of those seeking to censor whatever they deem to be "misinformation" - which is merely information that doesn't support the political opinions of those labeling it as "misinformation".
It’s hard to believe that is the world we live in sometimes. European Union was the testing ground. If we can’t keep it out we are going to remember these times as the good old days.
Wokeness is based on virtue signaling. The belief you are better than others. Note they rarely care about anyone other than their own grossly self worth.
Your arguments are just meaningless logical fraud. As I said, there's no more proof of God's existence as there are of Flying Macaroni Monster, and nothing you said disproves it.
Yeah, nothing comes from nothing but how God comes into equation? Big Bang theory also states that everything existed in the infinitely small singularity before the Big Bang. There are countless valid and solid theories where nothing also doesn't come from nothing but which does NOT involve God.
The only tiresome and also fraudulent person here is you. You're baselesslly trying to present your subjective faith as an objective truth, and I won't let you get away with this fraud. In addition, you're trying to force your subjective beliefs down on me and everyone else which you have no moral right to. You're no better than Woketards, just have a different ideology, and people like you are also a huge problem.
Lighten up Alex. What I really want is for you to stop blustering and making irrational ad hominem attacks and sit down in a quiet room and consider if what you are saying is supported by evidence.You declare there is no proof of God and yet I gave you an ironclad proof of His existence. Just prove that I am wrong and I will surrender and go away. That shouldn’t be hard for an intelligent fellow such as you.
Let’s try another tack. With all my intuition and conscience I believe my car is a Cadillac and you, with all your intuition and conscience believe it is a Buick. Which of us is right?
I do not use any ad hominems but I'd bring down your arrogance and false baseless claims.
There's NO single proof of God's existence. The fact there's no proof of its non-existence doesn't prove He exists, it's a logical fallacy.
Maybe Santa dors exist too? Or Flying Macaroni Monster? Prove to me they don't exist. Anything could exist in theory but we can't assume it does without an evidence.
I don't know what your car really is because I haven't seen it so it's another false argument.
Your objective authority is imagined by your mind. Because you're too infantile person who is scared to live in a wold without a Big Daddy, hence you imagined one.
And nope, what you're saying is meaningless. Faith doesn't require any object, at least a real object.
Kids believe in Santa. You believe in God. Woketards believe in Communism. None of your objects really exists.
You still conflate moral values with subjective considerations like intuition and conscience. Whose intuition? Yours, mine or perhaps, Putin’s
Let’s go back to the issue of slavery. Given the vastly different attitudes about slavery in the 19th and 20th centuries. Whose conscience and intuition, determines the correct answer? You seem to have fallen into the “my truth”, “your truth” dilemma. A purely personal anti-universal scale.
Perhaps we are not on the same page. I think that truth is the highest moral virtue. I am reading that you don’t believe it is. (I may be wrong) what then, in your universe is the truth about slavery? Good or evil. That of Jefferson or Lincoln? Your truth or mine?
Now back to God. You seem to think that a belief in an ultimate God is in, your words ..”highly, irresponsible, infantile, degrading and puerile. I believe God is creator, the ultimate arbiter of truth. If that be the case, you are tragically wrong.
In the “free to be you and me” world you inhabit, either or both might be true but in a wholly objective, real world, only one can be.
And back to God again. I don’t consider God to be “big Daddy” but rather the creator of all things, both you and me and thus the universal arbiter of truth and the highest moral value.
Your ad hominem attacks are no more than a lame attempt to avoid the question. Where does truth reside? Is it in your conscience and intuition or in some, objective, higher authority?
I have given you irrefutable proof that an eternal, universal,objective, God exists. I have said not one word about Christianity or human atrocities based on any religion.
My question to you is this. Is
God as described above real or just a figment of my imagination? If the latter then there is no moral value at all but rather a system of every man for himself. If the former, then I think it is reasonable to adjust my behavior to his authority.
Before I close. I want to dismiss the old canard that God can’t exists because you think some things some people do in his name are vile, atrocious etc. The important phrases here are “you think” and “some people do”. Again a purely, intuitive and subjective conception. In the real universe, the finite has no authority over the infinite.
Enough of this shit. Intuition and conscience are NOT subjective, they're universal abd objective and that's proven by research.
God does NOT exist. There's ZERO proof of his existence. So, you base your morals on your SUBJECTIVE FAITH and on two thousand years old outdated book written by barbarian humans who praise slavery, wars and genocide, and I can even quote.
Your subjective delusional faith and outdated barbarian book is NOT a solution, never was and never will be. Enough.
Interesting that you should write about Wokeism as the CHILD of Postmodernism and Marxism - because their basic attitude/belief of "feelings trump reality" is essentially the attitude of an immature child. They cry at the slightest discomfort, they want instant gratification, and they throw violent tantrums when they don't get their way.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Didn't think of this coincidence but very fitting, yeah, thanks for bringing it up.
This article makes sense of the apparent madness … thank you 🙏
You're welcome. Yeah, even madness can be explained rationally I believe.
Alex,
If I may be allowed a digression from the main subject of Wokeism, I wanted to offer an observation on the moral relativism which you correctly note guides Postmodernists. You state, "what made classic postmodernist moral relativists humble is realization that everyone has their own subjective truths, all of them are equal, hence, there’s no absolute truth, no one’s truth is superior, we all are equal...". What you don't state is the logical flaw that is fatal to such moral relativist thinking.
Postmodernists go just as far as your statement - concluding that "no one's truth is superior", that anyone's view is just as valid as anyone else's. But they fail at that point, because they fail to continue to follow out the logical consequences of adopting such a belief - a belief that, at first glance, looks pretty rosy, but, when examined more closely, disintegrates into a horror show. Moral relativism fails because it leaves one in the morally untenable position of having to accept that, operating from a worldview that rejects the notion of objective truth, that, for example, Hitler's opinion that it's a great idea to wipe out the Jews is just as valid as anyone else's. There is no logical ground for moral relativists to stand on from which they can declare that Hitler's opinion is "wrong", or "evil". In fact, there's no logical ground available to stand on from which to judge ANY opinion/belief as being wrong/bad/evil. The atheist philosopher, Bertrand Russell, acknowledged this problem, noting that "absent something like what we call 'God' (which serves as a transcendent source of objective moral truth), all talk of 'good' and 'evil' is nonsense."
Please forgive my long-windedness. I tend to operate as if the shortest verbal distance between any two points is a rather fullish sort of circle.
You made a good point about moral relativism and Hitler, I agree. In their view, even Hitler's morals are valid.
However, I don't agree with you bringing God here. God isn't required to validate morality which I believe is innate and universal.
In fact, there were enough crimes and genocides committed in the name of God.
My view on morality that it's objective and universal but it does NOT come from God or any supernatural being. It comes from our own hearts which are deep inside the same.
It's not the same as postmodernism. Because I claim that true moral values are intrinsic and universal book any human psyche just like liver is universal for any human body.
Hitler was not listening to his heart, hence he was immoral.
I'm not about to get into the whole logical argument on this - I've droned on long enough already here :) - but I'll just say that in order for morality to be objective, it has to originate from some transcendent source (hence, Russell's statement that "absent something like what we call 'God'...", any talk of good or evil is just nonsensical.)
Perhaps I can help you see the validity of Russell's point if you try this out: Okay, I'll assume that we agree that, for example, raping and murdering children is morally wrong. WHY? What MAKES it morally wrong?
Our heart is objective source enough. Moreover any external source you encounter first got registered by your subjective senses and then passes the judgment of your own heart.
People are just scared of the thought that their hearts are the only moral judges here and hence need an imaginary deity your validate it.
Exactly right, Jack. The heart can be deceitful; morality transcends our humanity.
True deep voice of the heart, intuition, is NEVER deceitful. Don't confuse it with emotion.
My intuition and hunch NEVER failed me.
The Bible did, in the contrary, countless times - when it praised slavery and wars and condemned my gay nature and love for naught too.
I'm not a coward and don't need any external deity to validate what I know by heart is true, and my heart is an ultimate moral judge - always was and always will be.
I do agree that intuition is helpful and often on target. As far as moral choices, people do have consciences, but those can be misinformed and clouded by childhood abuse and societal brainwashing. Psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists are a good example of this.
I disagree that a belief in God is cowardice. Humans were never meant to go it all alone. That doesn’t mean we don’t do our part, but it does mean there is love and help to get there.
The Bible doesn’t praise slavery; it attempts to change people’s hearts/consciences to regard others in love rather than as possessions. Neither does it praise war, though war was sometimes necessary in defense and other times as judgment on people who committed evil acts for many years. It also doesn’t condemn anyone’s nature, though it does give the principle of commitment in marriage (no outside sex before or during marriage). This is for the emotional/physical/financial/etc. protection of both individuals and the family.
Thanks for discussing this with me.
Intuition can transcend both child abuse and brainwashing.
And Bible DOES praise BOTH slavery and wars quite unambiguously in Leviticus, I could even quote to you from it.
Belief in God to get help and hope isn't cowardice. But if you need a deity to validate your morals, it IS cowardice however, and also self-denigration and self-deceit because there's no one but yourself to be responsible for your moral choices. To blame Devil for your OWN wrong moral choices is shifting responsibility for them from yourself same as to praise God for your correct moral choices is self-denial.
In addition, when instead of developing your own conscience and intuition you simply rely on every word of two thousand years old book which praises slavery and wars as an ultimate truth, it's laziness and lack of responsibility again.
You're right about the heart being capable of being deceitful. My heart was lying to me just yesterday evening - telling me the Yankees won. That, of course, was just wishful thinking on my part (when I fell for that big whopper my heart was telling me, and, ever the optimist, went to check the score, I saw the sad truth, that they lost, 8-2).
P. P. S. Also, you see the trap you had fallen into yourself? You justly accused postmodernism of denying objective reality and morality in favor of their subjective feelings.
Yet you yourself are doing essentially the same - denying objective reality in favor of your subjective faith.
Or how is your faith different from Woke feelings, tell me please? Nothing of it is factual. Nothing can be proven logically. There's ZERO logical proof of God's existence and hence to use God in a logical argument is already an oxymoron.
Again, we all have our conscience and intuition. We don't need any deity to validate our morals.
In fact, using deity to validate your morals is highly irresponsible. You shift the blame for your wrong moral choices on the devil and give credit for your correct choices to God. You deprive yourself from any agency. It's highly irresponsible IMO.
Also, it's downright laziness of mind. Instead of developing your own conscience and intuition you prefer to rely on the words of two thousand years old book which praises wars, slavery and genocides as an absolute truth. How are you better than the Woke then?
P. S. You see, even your belief in God comes from YOU, from your heart, not from Him. There's NO single logical proof of God's existence, yet you chose to believe in Him. Why? Because your HEART told you so. Again, it's not that God talks to you daily. It's in your HEART that your faith is. So even this comes from you, your heart is the only ultimate moral judge. I wonder why so many people are scared to acknowledge it while I never was.
True deep voice of the heart, intuition, is NEVER deceitful. Don't confuse it with emotion.
My intuition and hunch NEVER failed me.
The Bible did, in the contrary, countless times - when it praised slavery and wars and condemned my gay nature and love for naught too.
I'm not a coward and don't need any external deity to validate what I know by heart is true, and my heart is an ultimate moral judge - always was and always will be.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Theresa - although I get nervous when anyone suggests that I might be "exactly right" about something. I don't trust my judgment that much. In fact, I often vehemently disagree with some of my most firmly held opinions.
Thank you for a detailed comprehensive review.
You're welcome.
The Bulls even weirded out.
Alex, The bottom of the "directional" pic got cut off! I know what's there, but would enjoy seeing it! Sorry, but I admit I am juvenile, and very delinquent.
Yeah that actually sucks it got cut off, maybe I'll change the pic tomorrow.
It's OK. I'm good now. I saved and re-opened, and got to see what I needed. Reminded me of having to put another dollar in a garter......
Or you could insert it in your post...... peleeze!!
Good idea too, thanks!
Depravation
What liberalism? Liberalism is historically tied to the Bill of Rights. The ACLU would fight for the right of the KKK to have marches because they believed in free speech. No woke ACLU would do that today.
Indeed, the ACLU is currently firmly on the side of those seeking to censor whatever they deem to be "misinformation" - which is merely information that doesn't support the political opinions of those labeling it as "misinformation".
It’s hard to believe that is the world we live in sometimes. European Union was the testing ground. If we can’t keep it out we are going to remember these times as the good old days.
Growing up different is like sending letters out to people and having them all come back unopened.
This make some people feel unaccepted and so make them selves anti conventional
The revocation of citizenship for every woke Moron
Wokeness is based on virtue signaling. The belief you are better than others. Note they rarely care about anyone other than their own grossly self worth.
Alex, now try to pay attention. This is the last you will hear from me. You’ve become tiresome
A. I assume you would agree that from nothing nothing comes.
B. You would also, I assume, agree that something rather than nothing, does exists.
C. If A and B are both true then it must be true that there exists an eternal being that has the power of creation.
According to Merriam Webster: That Being. Perfect in power, wisdom and goodness who is worshipped in Judaism, Christianity ,Islam and
Hinduism is called God
That covers the vast majority , billions and billions, of people world wide.
Sorry Alex, you’ve been out voted.
Your arguments are just meaningless logical fraud. As I said, there's no more proof of God's existence as there are of Flying Macaroni Monster, and nothing you said disproves it.
Yeah, nothing comes from nothing but how God comes into equation? Big Bang theory also states that everything existed in the infinitely small singularity before the Big Bang. There are countless valid and solid theories where nothing also doesn't come from nothing but which does NOT involve God.
The only tiresome and also fraudulent person here is you. You're baselesslly trying to present your subjective faith as an objective truth, and I won't let you get away with this fraud. In addition, you're trying to force your subjective beliefs down on me and everyone else which you have no moral right to. You're no better than Woketards, just have a different ideology, and people like you are also a huge problem.
Lighten up Alex. What I really want is for you to stop blustering and making irrational ad hominem attacks and sit down in a quiet room and consider if what you are saying is supported by evidence.You declare there is no proof of God and yet I gave you an ironclad proof of His existence. Just prove that I am wrong and I will surrender and go away. That shouldn’t be hard for an intelligent fellow such as you.
Let’s try another tack. With all my intuition and conscience I believe my car is a Cadillac and you, with all your intuition and conscience believe it is a Buick. Which of us is right?
I do not use any ad hominems but I'd bring down your arrogance and false baseless claims.
There's NO single proof of God's existence. The fact there's no proof of its non-existence doesn't prove He exists, it's a logical fallacy.
Maybe Santa dors exist too? Or Flying Macaroni Monster? Prove to me they don't exist. Anything could exist in theory but we can't assume it does without an evidence.
I don't know what your car really is because I haven't seen it so it's another false argument.
My faith is subjective. But that is meaningless unless there is some objective authority that is the object of my
subjective faith. I am not my own judge.
Your objective authority is imagined by your mind. Because you're too infantile person who is scared to live in a wold without a Big Daddy, hence you imagined one.
And nope, what you're saying is meaningless. Faith doesn't require any object, at least a real object.
Kids believe in Santa. You believe in God. Woketards believe in Communism. None of your objects really exists.
Oh good! You finally mention slavery. Is slavery an evil or a good ? Was Lincoln or
Davis objectively and morally consistent . That’s a simple enough question for a smart guy like you. A anxiously await your
answer.
According to your Bible, slavery is good and it's ok to have slaves.
Objectively slavery is ofc evil, not a question even.
Alex;
You still conflate moral values with subjective considerations like intuition and conscience. Whose intuition? Yours, mine or perhaps, Putin’s
Let’s go back to the issue of slavery. Given the vastly different attitudes about slavery in the 19th and 20th centuries. Whose conscience and intuition, determines the correct answer? You seem to have fallen into the “my truth”, “your truth” dilemma. A purely personal anti-universal scale.
Perhaps we are not on the same page. I think that truth is the highest moral virtue. I am reading that you don’t believe it is. (I may be wrong) what then, in your universe is the truth about slavery? Good or evil. That of Jefferson or Lincoln? Your truth or mine?
Now back to God. You seem to think that a belief in an ultimate God is in, your words ..”highly, irresponsible, infantile, degrading and puerile. I believe God is creator, the ultimate arbiter of truth. If that be the case, you are tragically wrong.
In the “free to be you and me” world you inhabit, either or both might be true but in a wholly objective, real world, only one can be.
And back to God again. I don’t consider God to be “big Daddy” but rather the creator of all things, both you and me and thus the universal arbiter of truth and the highest moral value.
Your ad hominem attacks are no more than a lame attempt to avoid the question. Where does truth reside? Is it in your conscience and intuition or in some, objective, higher authority?
I have given you irrefutable proof that an eternal, universal,objective, God exists. I have said not one word about Christianity or human atrocities based on any religion.
My question to you is this. Is
God as described above real or just a figment of my imagination? If the latter then there is no moral value at all but rather a system of every man for himself. If the former, then I think it is reasonable to adjust my behavior to his authority.
Before I close. I want to dismiss the old canard that God can’t exists because you think some things some people do in his name are vile, atrocious etc. The important phrases here are “you think” and “some people do”. Again a purely, intuitive and subjective conception. In the real universe, the finite has no authority over the infinite.
Enough of this shit. Intuition and conscience are NOT subjective, they're universal abd objective and that's proven by research.
God does NOT exist. There's ZERO proof of his existence. So, you base your morals on your SUBJECTIVE FAITH and on two thousand years old outdated book written by barbarian humans who praise slavery, wars and genocide, and I can even quote.
Your subjective delusional faith and outdated barbarian book is NOT a solution, never was and never will be. Enough.
I win.
What? You're really out of touch with reality.